Mad World

[keiramarcos]

Does the Internet breed contempt? Is it easier to forget your actually dealing with other people when you don't have to look them in the eye? Would you say some of the shit you post in anonymously to their face given the opportunity? Familiarity doesn't really cover it anymore. It's not about being familiar with someone or feeling like you know them personally. Because, really, the better I know a person the harder it is to say things that might hurt their feelings.

I think it's about not being accountable for your words. A person on the Internet can be as cruel as they want -- hide behind a screen name and vent their spleen on strangers until they feel better about themselves and never once worry about the damage they've caused the person on the other end of things. Why? Because, their target was never really a "person" to them to begin with. They'll never have to look this person in the eye and explain themselves. That's the mad, fucked up world we live in.

We can say things like "fan entitlement" all day long. It happens to professional writers as well as fan fic writers these days. People follow their favorite actors, writers, etc on Twitter or Facebook and all of a sudden discover that their favorite "famous person" is actually a real live fucking human being and then they're disappointed by it. Then they get on Fandom Post Secret or something similar and tell the world they think Zachery Quinto is a twat because of his Tweets (yes I actually saw that on one of those communities). I personally think his Tweets are pretty funny but to each his own.

This judgment from strangers can be cruel and so damned mean-spirited. It's easy to say -- "Ignore it. They don't know you. What they think doesn't matter."

Sometimes, however, it's not that easy to ignore. Sometimes, it cuts into the heart of who you are as a person and that makes you so damned angry that you can't even think about anything else but what this sorry mother fucker on the other end of a computer said about you or your post on LJ or the pictures you posted on Facebook-- what the hell ever they picked out about you to hate. It doesn't really matter what it is.

I was reading in a fandom that I don't normally read in and I came across an author who was pretty much DESTROYED in the comment section of a forum she posted her story in. How she had the fortitude not to delete her story and leave that forum entirely, I don't even know. I would have told them ALL to kiss my ass. What bothered me most about the entire thing is that nowhere in that situation did a moderator step in and point out that the 50 out of 64 comments on her story were actually violating the rules they posted on the forum's info page. Apparently, this woman and her little 2k story was fair game. I realized I was more angry at the person running the forum than I was any of the commenters because they LET it happen. They let it continue until it reached an extremely abusive level in my opinion. I run/operate/own (whatever) one community on LJ and I have to say if this happened on Different Roads-- I would ban every single person (except the author) involved without a single regret because I feel like it's my responsibility to make sure the members of that community follow the rules I set.

The kicker? It was a GOOD story. Granted it was dark and shocking BUT she warned for it excessively. In fact, her warning was so explicit that it kind of ruined the ending for me but that's neither here nor there.

I could harp for several thousand words on the crap I've gotten in my email about my writing but I've already done that and I'm just not in the mood to whip that particular horse. Maybe I'm bitching too much about this particular situation in fandom but the thing is that it really fucking bothers me.

Comments

[melonbutterfly.livejournal.com]

Some people are assholes. They feel empowered when they put others down - everybody knows this feeling, even if only on a small scale. Those people are stressed and unhappy and, as you said, anonymity gives them the protection to vent and to know they hit whewre it hurts without having to see the effect.
I personally find it bewildering, how much energy some people spend on hating something they hate, not realising that by doing that, they give it much more importance in their lives than it should deserve, but that's neither here nor there. I think they're just really, truly unhappy, which is not an excuse, but it's an explanation. Their behaviour is shameful and disgusting, there's nothing else to say.

[ladyholder.livejournal.com]

Amen.

~L

[darkjediqueen]

I remember a few years ago in the SG1 & SGA community I came across a website and LJ that was a group of other SG1 and SGA authors actually copied stories over and picked them apart for each others amusment. They had the ideals that if you couldnt' write perfection in thier eyes, you shouldn't be posting anything at all ever as far as a story went. Bad thing for me was that the main person who did it was like one of my favorite authers.

Needless to say I stopped reading her fics and then later found one of my own stories under her "red pen" as it were. It was one of the first ones I had ever wrote and I was like 15 when I did write it.

My stories do show my age in them as I grow so due they and I feel that changing the stories that I wrote when I was younger isn't something I should do. It shows how much I have changed.

I hate other authors who feel that they have the write to tell others what to write and how they should write it, same goes for those who just read. I never get tired of seeing your posts. I still have all my fics on all the sites I used to post on, they never scared me off as they have so many others.

[keiramarcos]

That really sounds horrible. Does that community still exist? I wonder if they have a whole section dedicated to me? LOL. Is that vain? I bet it is!

[kathana-grey.livejournal.com]

There's no such thing as talking too much about injustice. The thing is, humans IMHO are for the most part like lemmings. or sheep. I don't want to insult sheep but they seem to delight in bloaking at least as loud and in the same tone of voice as their neighbor sheep.

May I take a guess as to what happened to the author and her story? One of the first ones in the thread, maybe a friend of the comm manager, made the first ugly post because he or she doesn't agree with setting/characterisation/style. And since they are known and accomplished experts/authors in the fandom everyone else who read the story felt free to jump onto the bandwagon and unleash on the poor author. Weak minded or ass lickers (of the un-fun variety), they couldn't resist a little stress relieve.

I've seen it happen like that in more than one fandom.

Good for you!

[winterhart]

I agree, I have been absolutely *horrified* at some of the shit people pull on the Internet... it's gotta be the thing about wearing a mask... People, screen names are faceless, so it's not real. So they erroneously think everyone is fair game.

Personally, I'd say if you have that much venom to spew, get medicated.

[felix (from livejournal.com)]

You have to worry about the kind of person who clearly derives some measure of happiness or validation from inflicting unpleasantness on people who have done nothing but make their creations available to those who might enjoy them.

[keiramarcos]

It's a casual kind of sociopathology. We can only hope they don't torture small animals in their neighborhood as well.

[batspit.livejournal.com]

If you can't bitch and rant about injustice, morons, and your pet peeves in the privacy of your own LJ, then what would be the point?

I think the thing is, there have always been bullies and people who like to tear others down, belittle, or even worse, those who left-hand-compliment, or 'don't take this the wrong way, but'. The internet just gives them an unsupervised playground where they can be their passive aggressive, ugly-souled selves without getting called on it, because there will always be some other ugly-souled passive aggressive moron who either agrees or eggs them on. Or worse, fights with them on some completely asinine, yet completely different ugly-souled difference of opinion.

If only there were a way to trace morons online back to there pathetic real world existences and smack them around a lot. Or spray for them like the mosquitoes they are.

[keiramarcos]

I don't mean to be insulting but...

Don't get mad but...

I'm not a racist but...

--
The last time someone started a sentence like that with me-- the words "Shut the fuck up" came out of my mouth shortly after they paused after the word "but". It worked surprisingly well.

[alainia.livejournal.com]

People are stupid.

Mind you, I go on rateyourprofessor.com and am generally not nice about it, but only if the teacher really deserves it. And I'll tell it to the teacher's face if they ask me, after they give me my grade.

But I'm not cruel to people online especially for things like fiction. If I don't like it, I don't review.

[batspit.livejournal.com]

"People are stupid. "

I think we could probably just stop there.

But that doesn't leave much else as a topic for conversation.

We Should Be Happy They Bothered!!!

[hugo bet (from livejournal.com)]

This are people who take the time to write stories we all read and like for free!!
They should expect the courtesy of appreciation not only of the time they spent on writing but that they posted it even if we didn't like the story!!
There is nothing more scary than to write a story and then see people who never even wrote something in their lives complain and demolished something they spent hours, days or even weeks working on.
I never wrote a story in my life and i thank every writer who had the guts to post a story even if i didn't like it, they tried they got better and we would missed them if they weren't there!!
I apologise if i offend anyone but these writers should be cherished for their work not demonized because one out of ten didn't like or was offended.
I can spend hours looking and trawling the net for that gem of a story that will make me laugh or make me sad because its that good!
One out of a hundred is that good, should we bitch and complain about the other 99? How will they get better if we don't support them,if we don't help them get better?
I'm sorry there aren't more who try and astonish us with their work, appreciate, criticise if needed, politely and with care and the next one will be better. AND GIVE THANKS THEY BOTHERED!!!

[theotherwillow.livejournal.com]

Personally, I have 2 very simple rules:

1.) I don't say anything to anyone on the Internet that I wouldn't have the balls to say to their face.
2.) If I have something negative to say, I think about it for 24hrs so I can decide what my goal is in this comment and what I think, realistically, my comment will achieve, and if that is something I can live with.

Honestly, this ends with me being more polite on the Internet than I am in RL, because in person I'm a bit of a blunt bitch. Annonimity is a coward's vice and I have no patience or respect for those who abuse it.

[ravenmoonart.livejournal.com]

Those are good rules!

I have a 3rd rule for myself...never post ANYTHING (positive or negative) while on my period. Its apt to come out much bitchier than I intended, plus I'm sure to overthink any replies I get!

[gail19.livejournal.com]

And the extra horrible thing? I know of a least one person who set up a completely separate lj id just to bash people. Not only do people not want to be accountable for what they say, some of them know it is totally out of line and don't want their flist knowing what they do in their spare time.

[keiramarcos]

That's so... tacky as my Aunt Busybody would say.

[ocean22193.livejournal.com]

That is disturbing. I mean, I was taught to be respectful and open minded about what other people had to say, and if I disagreed, to offer constructive criticism instead of just tearing them apart. Now, I know that I'm not always polite or respectful, and I try really hard to be open minded, and I know that I can seem a little brash or more than a little mouthy (more online than in real life), I'm pretty sure that I'm never a complete jackass. Whenever I comment on something, whether I liked it or not, I try to be polite about it. Especially when I don't like something, I try really harder to make whoever posted something feel like I'm talking to them, and not just some faceless person. People who are real douches about their opinions have either never been taught manners or are extremely repressed especially in the feelings department and just let loose all their anger on some poor writer who's just trying to get some nice feedback on their work. It's horrible that people do this, especially when they criticize aspects of a fic that they don't like that are clearly marked in the WARNING, SPOILER, SUMMARY, or AUTHOR'S NOTES sections of the fic's descriptions, which shows that they either didn't even bother to read the description or just want to tear into someone for writing it in the first place which is just horrible. I mean seriously, don't these people have anything better to do?

[history13041985.livejournal.com]

Sadly , i agree with you . Last year , i post on a rant community a rant about several thing (the rape , the overuse of a character ). Well first , a lot of people said : why don't you read. Secondly , they thought i was a troll (now i see it is because of the topics of rape . There are too people who thought i wanted to have this pairing banished of the fandom which it's wrong) . I didn't sleep the night and i was not well for several days because of that and i thought what a asholle i am (because of the comment ). So yes , internet can be an arm for some people .

As you say , you don't have the person right here so you can destroy what she/he writes but sometimes you can take bad what he/she writes . But i don't think that all those people saw what they did at these poor author(the one you speak in your post for example) . I really think that for some , it is how they react now and they don't think about the words they use .
Of course , for other person , they feel pleasure to destroy the work of other .
I hope i don't do a lot of mistake .
(for the community , i continu to read it but i don't post here . i don't think i can have another)

Best guess?

[justalurkr.livejournal.com]

I'm going to assume she's not curled in a quivering ball of nerves somewhere because her story is still up, and she's thinking "y'all can kiss my shiny ass" really, really loudly, but isn't dignifying the response with one of her own.

Either that, or she knows the players all too well, and is taking their commentary with the appropriate quantities of salt.

She's a braver and more restrained woman than I, that's for sure.

[ravynowl.livejournal.com]

I tend not to post on Keira's site because by the time I get to something to read it, there's a couple hundred great story posts, and I have nothing new to add and feel stupid, like I'm posting "me, too!"

I also nitpick in my own mind. I'm a proofreader, among other things, so it's kind of ingrained. I try not to do so over piddly stuff unless asked.

[azurehart.livejournal.com]

Bullies love the internet. They can torture other people, sometimes to the point where their victims do themselves harm, and can get away with it.

Then there are those that feel that the only way to make themselves seem bigger and more important is to knock down other people. They feel that if they can stand on their victims, they themselves will seem better in contrast.

I have people like that in my own family. I've never put up with their crap, so they usually leave me alone. Helps that I live at least a state away from most of them.

[moonjean2009.livejournal.com]

People use the anonymity provided by the internet to express the evil little thoughts or quirks that they know would likely get them punched in the face in real life. It's cowardly and it's mean.

My view of the world is maybe getting jaded but I've come to expect it. People are mean, they say or do vicious things to others because they feel like it. That's the way it is. I know it's not everyone but I've come to start judging people as guilty until proven innocent, it's easier for me because if they say or do something hurtful to me, I knew it was coming and had protected myself from emotional pain. If by some miracle they're nice I count myself lucky to have found a gem and cultivate a friendship with that person. I know it's horrible but I've gotten hurt because of what I feel is naivety so I've gotten to a point where nothing really surprises me anymore.

Though I have a dim view of people in general, I try to be nice and not let it affect my attitude. With fandom, I think the policy should be if you can't say something nice don't say anything at all and you should only offer criticism when the author asks for it. I've found stories that I've hated, that were filled with errors for whatever reason or that had something in it that just twigged me wrong. My reaction is simple, I STOP READING. That's it. Done. Move on. Not once do I get tempted to inflict this author with my opinion because I don't see the point of saying something mean just for the heck of it.

Fandom is a fun way to pass the time but if you look deep there are some really cutthroat people there that prey on people just to make themselves feel better.

I'll stop now. I could go on forever with this.

[hellbells101.livejournal.com]

It's so sad that some people can only gain happiness through belittling others. Hat's off to the writer for keeping her story up.

I personally have a message when I gain those sorts of reviews. I live by a Becker quote for idiots like that, "If you stop talking it will stop all those words falling out."(in this case typing)

Let's face it these, diatribes usually tell you a hell of a lot more about the reviewer than anything else.

[keroyn13.livejournal.com]

i personally don't understand why they BOTHER posting if its just going to be mean spirited and hateful. what ever happened to "if you cant say something nice..." i have found stories on the net that i find distasteful, i fully support my right to not read the bloody thing. i mean really, i try not to read angst, it makes me sad, but i read the warnings and know not to read that story. i dont go and read it and then comment that it was to ... its like going to someones house and demanding they change their decor to suit your needs. if you dont like it, leave

[delerium95.livejournal.com]

I think one of the biggest problems is the mods. As someone mentioned earlier people often have sheep like qualities. If they see one post that´s mean and no one´s stopped it they can justify their own meanness.

I remember the first time I read something outside my first fandom. I was shocked at people´s comments. My first fandom is all rainbows and kittens and mods of steal. They deleted anything even vaguely negative and I think it encouraged a lot of people to write more. I think being a mod should have a morality/backbone requirement.

trolls? bullies? ignorance?

[kontiki.livejournal.com]

It predates the internet, its just that it used to happened in a more private situation. A troll writing a letter to an author has just as much impact on the author, I would think, but it doesn't suck others in. Responses on the internet are happening in front of more people. Trolls and bullies are out to hurt people. There is a certain "mob" component sometimes, the piranha effect, so to speak. I think it is hard to deal with trolls and bullies because they are out for the reaction. What I do not get at all is why people jump on stories or authors of stories they do not like. Where does the equation exist in their minds that "I do not like what you wrote" = "You are scum of the earth" AND "I do not like what you wrote" = "I have the *RIGHT* to rip you and your story to shreds". Fanfiction is a *GIFT*. People write stories and *GIVE* them to us to read. Many of the stories are better than the ones available from publishers that you have to pay money for. Even if a story is not one I would care for, it is still a gift. As a reader I try to cheer on authors I like, but I do not have any rights or entitlements regarding their work. I am an adult. If I am reading something and I do not like it, I can stop reading it. I can even push the delete key and move on. That does not mean that there are not other people out there who love the story. There is no reason for me to attack either the author or the story. Thank you for your gift. My point is we can not really fix trolls and bullies, except maybe ignore them. But where are people getting the idea that it's okay to attack someone or something that they do not like. Especially when it is a gift in the first place? Is there a way to respond to people that isn't pouring fuel on the fire while letting them know it is not acceptable?

[celia311.livejournal.com]

The fact that you can hide behind your screen to spew hurtful things are a huge problem for schools. Internet bullying/harassment is getting worse and worse and the kids don't seem to recognize that the words they write are *real*.
It's nice to know that lj comm's have crawled down to middle school level... sigh.

[keiramarcos]

Whenever I see an extremely negative comment on someone's LJ or in a community-- I want to jump on that commenter with both feet BUT I have a rule about showing my ass on websites that don't actually belong to me.

[tamstercmt.livejournal.com]

I think people use the internet a lot to say things they wouldn't say otherwise. You're right in that being anonymous makes some people absolute monsters. When I post on line, I always try to be aware that there is other people reading my posts. I always read stuff before I post it (well, almost always). Comments that are not a big deal if you are face to face can be misconstrued when you're writing.

A couple of years ago there was an author on one of the SG1 fanfic lists who posted this epic story. I still have it on my hard drive. Her story was AU, and the basic plot was J/D went on a quest. She wove legends and mysticism into the story and it was obvious that she did her homework. I wrote her after I finished reading it to tell her I loved the story and pointed out certain scenes that were especially powerful to me. This poor girl wrote me back thanking me for my comments, that I was the first person to give her positive feedback, and she was getting a lot of shit from other people for the AU. She has posted it in chapters, but I found it after the whole story was completed. I think she planned a trilogy, but I haven't seen her anywhere ever since. I must make a point to try to find out if she did post anything else.

What really ticked me off about the whole thing was this author is phenomenal. I would not be surprised in the least if she never posted another story. Which goes back to people being assholes. I did write to her again and tell her not to give up, people are jerks, try not to let it get to her, but I doubt I made a difference.

[half-vulcan.livejournal.com]

"I realized I was more angry at the person running the forum than I was any of the commenters because they LET it happen. They let it continue until it reached an extremely abusive level in my opinion. I run/operate/own (whatever) one community on LJ and I have to say if this happened on Different Roads-- I would ban every single person (except the author) involved without a single regret because I feel like it's my responsibility to make sure the members of that community follow the rules I set."

See that is the way it is supposed to be done. I have a lot of respect for a mod being able to stand their ground and protect community members. I totally agree with everything you said here and I had to f-lock my journal because of harassment. The issue? I comment too much. Really? People actually took time out of their day to notice we were reading the same stories and a shit load of anons spammed my journal because I comment what I read if I like it.*eye roll* Fuckers did not have the balls to even use names. So yeah...I am with you on ALL this!

[keiramarcos]

You comment too much.

Right.

How dare you comment on people's fics?


LMAO.

Christ, that is the silliest thing I've ever heard. I think I would have probably laughed myself sick at least at first but I can see how the constant bombardment can just get so fucking old.

[ravenmoonart.livejournal.com]

Not only does the anonymity of the internet make bullying easier...it also makes it a habit. People have gotten SO used to their being a comment button at the bottom of everything they come across (not just fic, but art, people's personal journals & pics, even news stories), that they feel like they have to express an opinion on absolutely EVERYTHING.

Of course we all have an absolute right to have opinions (even when we know little or nothing on the topic, and even if our thoughts are mean and rude) but now its become a habit for many people to SAY whatever nasty thing they have in their head...publicly. I don't know who said it originally, but I love the quote: "What you think of me is none of my business."

Whatever happened to keeping one's rants private? If I don't like something in a story I'm reading, I turn and bitch to my husband about it. He and I can then get into a debate about whatever it is and sometimes he'll even change my opinion (he writes and betas fanfic, and so has a different perspective than me, who is strictly a reader) We have a fun conversation, and no ones feelings are hurt.

[surevesta.livejournal.com]

The SPN and J2 fandom have an anon community... the big spn_j2_bigbang this past summer had a dedicated section for anons to critique the stories and art. I didn't check out the community so I don't know what was said about my own fic (which was slightly cliche, but then I wanted a J2 college AU!Bonded boys fic for my own amusement so I wrote it). I know a lot of authors who considered pulling out of the challenge and some that, due to actions before or since, have left LJ or stopped posting fanfic in the fandom or even left the fandom entirely.

I have huge chunks of fics written myself that I've decided I won't post till I finish the fic and then I'm not going to continue posting on LJ rather AO3. Although that isn't because anyone insulted me in emails or pms, rather I just don't want to be involved in the LJ section of fandom that would do that sort of things anymore.