Speechless

[keiramarcos]

I rarely agree to critique or beta for writer's I have to look in the face. You might ask yourself why... well the truth is that I can be an extremely critical beta and in the past I've lost friends over it. I had the unfortunate opportunity earlier in the month to receive the second draft of a novel of a local writer. She asked for "detailed feedback" if I had any "free time". Right. I didn't want to do it but I felt like I really couldn't say no without looking like a snotty, horrible person. I am sort of a snotty, horrible person but I do try to be decent to people I'm friendly with.


Her mechanics are a thing of beauty -- she structures scenes well, her chapters are rounded and well developed and her plot is exceptional. The problem? By chapter four I wanted to murder her "hero". By chapter six, I wanted the bad guy to WIN. By the time the love scene rolled around, I was convinced the heroine needed rescuing from the hero and it didn't help that the entire scene had a layer of dub-con all over it. The hero was smug, misogynistic, and thoroughly irredeemable in my mind.

So, I try to praise her for the parts I did like -- only to have her ask questions about the things I didn't want to discuss. There is no delicate way to put this, really. How do you say : "Your hero is an asshat, your heroine is a doormat, and your villain had every right to want to kill them both."

Right, so I try to be diplomatic which isn't easy for me (as you all might have guessed) and I frame my impressions of the characters as "this is just my opinion and I could be very wrong". Right, well, we aren't exactly friends and she isn't someone I hang out with often so she didn't quite get the fact that I was trying to avoid insulting her and also didn't want to contradict the four other people who had read the book and praised her to the high heavens for her character development. I tell her, "I just didn't connect with your hero the way I felt I should have to really enjoy the book."

Her response: (insert dramatic huff) "I shouldn't have asked you to read it. I mean you're just a romance writer. It isn't like you understand literature."

Which, granted, pissed me off but I was really too shocked to respond. I happen to a know a great fucking deal about my craft and while I do tend to write romance -- I'm capable of writing in a variety of genres. I write romance because it PAYS THE BILLS.

Snotty Chick Lit Writer said: "Oh, get over yourself. You're lucky she wasted her time on you to begin with."

Erotica Writer bought me some cookies and now we're planning the ritual burning of the copy of Local Writer's novel that I have sitting at home.

Comments

[darkjediqueen]

With all the things that you have been posting lately about your writing that does pay the bills it has got me wanting to read those as well.

I agree with Snotty Chick Lit Writer, if you don't want someone's honest opinions then don't have them read your work.

[me-ya-ri.livejournal.com]

With all the things that you have been posting lately about your writing that does pay the bills it has got me wanting to read those as well.

Agreed! More Kiera, no matter what the name on the cover, would be good. *grin*

[bjhull.livejournal.com]

Wow. Reminds me of the time my husband and I went to a photographic exhibit back when we worked in a photo lab. Snotty newspaper photographer had some prints up and commented to my husband that the great thing about photography was that there were "creative" people like her, and technicians like my husband. Husband then proceeded to tell her about his Bachelor of Fine Arts degree and multiple prints exhibited at juried shows, not just having friends put stuff up at coffee houses. She kind of avoided us the rest of the evening...

[i-cant-talk-now.livejournal.com]

How many people does she need to have read her book? I didn't realize that books had multiple editors. She sounds needy, looking for validation, rather than honest feedback. I mean she already *knew* your were JUST A ROMANCE AUTHOR when she asked you. Was she hoping to impress you?

Whatever.

[wonapalei.livejournal.com]

Being one of those people who find criticism hard to deal with, but also being aware that my thin skin is not ideal, I generally hope that severe critics just give me a warning ahead of time. I find I can deal with it much better if a critic tells me before looking at my work "I'm a harsh critic, it's not personal, etc." than if they try and fail to sugarcoat it, or if they only tell me as a preface to the critique itself (since the second one means, "I would have tried to be nice, but your work sucks SO MUCH there's no way I can").

Basically, if you tell me ahead of time that you're going to rip my work apart if you don't like it, I figure I've got time to prepare for the carnage and no kick coming if I continue to ask that you review it. And there's always the ego-boost you get when a severe critic doesn't give you a particularly harsh critique, since that means you did something so amazing even they couldn't find (much) fault.

[azurehart.livejournal.com]

What a idiot. Seriously why do people ask for a honest opinion when what they really want is for someone to blow sunshine up their ass?

One of the best critiques I ever received was from someone that (in a nice way) totally ripped my work apart. At the time I was slightly pissed, but I quickly realized he was completely right. While I am nowhere near the level of a professional writer, I do believe that first, hard, honest critique did a lot to help me improve my writing ability.

If someone whose work I admired took the time to go over my work and give me their honest opinion I'd be thrilled, especially if they found areas that needed improvement. Also, when I read Snotty Chick Lit Writer's response I snorted Mt. Dew out my nose. *owie*

[atuinsails.livejournal.com]

I think you should kick that woman in the neck. You take time from other, more enjoyable pursuits in order to impart some advice, and she can't take it. Worse, yet, you had to slog through an inverted antagonist/protagonist situation. I hate those.

I want heroic, smart heroes, independent, touch heroines, and smart, truly evil master minds. I don't often get those, so you know, I read your stuff :D.

Really, you should tell her the truth -- that the seventies are asking for her very badly done romance back.

[keiramarcos]

LMAO.

[scorpiodragon.livejournal.com]

I had a similiar experience with a writer who asked me beta some of the early chapters of his novel. I did it as a favor because his mom was my real estate agent and she asked me if I could talk to him about writing an publishing so he could have a real perspective on the industry aside from novel writing.

He was a nice young man but his writing (a sci-fi novel) was just all over the place as well as some authorship issues. The work came out of a round table with friends who helped develop characters and write sections. So not only did I have to explain writing mechanics in a tactful way but also explain basics regarding rights, permissions, authorships and how if these aren't done correctly the can lead to lawsuits. He didn't take my critique well, but he was nice about at least.

[djaddict.livejournal.com]

Bwahaha!! If you don't want someone's honest opinion... don't ask for it!

And you may be a snotty, horrible person, but you are probably my favorite snotty, horrible person (Rodney doesn't count)and you make me laugh!!

♥

[chris-king-2005.livejournal.com]

"...you may be a snotty, horrible person, but you are probably my favorite snotty, horrible person (Rodney doesn't count)and you make me laugh!!"

Exactly!

[syble4.livejournal.com]

Well, what was she thinking she'd get if she asked for detailed feedback? Apparently the 'detail' part was suppose to be how awesome her writing was.

[captain-tibbs.livejournal.com]

But if there is a smug, misogynistic hero and a doormat heroine; is this not a romance novella of the Mills & Boon (Harlequine)variety?
Not that I'm knocking that genre. I just get the impression that this is not exactly The Great American Novel.

[keiramarcos]

It read like Nicolas Spark's red-headed stepchild to be honest.

[tygtig.livejournal.com]

I am one of these people who can't stand criticism - it tears me apart. NOT GOOD. I've learnt to deal with it in my job, where it's necessary, but when it comes to other things I just tell people to lie to me :-) "Tell me this is good, would you?"
That's the reason I won't ever be a professional writer and the reason I'm not mature enough to ever get a beta. At least I'm aware of my issues.

That being said - I think you should have told her exactly that her hero is an asshat, her heroine a doormat and that you actually rooted for the villain at the end. Might have gone through.

(I want to read your romance novels. And more of your porn.)

[auntbijou.livejournal.com]

Huh.

Well, guess Miss Snotty Pants didn't realize that a lot of what's considered "literature" now was considered "romance" back in its own time. Romance is a lot harder to write than most people think... and so is comedy.

Don't forget the marshmallows for toasting on the flames!

[winter-elf.livejournal.com]

You have the most interesting writing group there!

I've read way to many novels - where it's so very much dub-con and I'm like no... that's NOT sexy! UGH! And rooting for the villian. *sigh* Now that's she's pissed at you anyway - maybe you should just tell her - make the villian the hero!

[mistress-tien.livejournal.com]

Snotty Chick Lit Writer is right! You spent your time to help someone out and they're too small-minded to deal with it.

I've had the same problem as an editor. If you ask me for feedback you're going to get it. You may not like it, but there's no reason to be rude about. Do not ask if you do not want to know!

Enjoy the bonfire! Roast marshmallows and make s'mores!

[bleedtoblue.livejournal.com]

"I shouldn't have asked you to read it. I mean you're just a romance writer. It isn't like you understand literature."

As she so obviously does, my, what a speshul flower she must be.

It's only literature if you hate most of the characters and wished you hadn't wasted your time reading it?

[batspit.livejournal.com]

I think that's the current working definition. The last book group I was in was all about 'best sellers' and I swear we never read One. Single. Book. that didn't have me asking for my hours back. I don't care how well written and carefully crafted. If I spend most of your story wanting to lie in wait in a dark alley for every single one of your characters with either a spine or an Uzi, the beauty of your writing will escape me.

The the book club leader explained to me that she didn't have time to 'waste reading fluff' when I suggested an alternate best seller that was actually engaging and amusing. So that was the end of that.

So add to that definition you'd like to slit your wrists so you could get out of finishing the wretched thing.

[tamstercmt.livejournal.com]

*shakes head sadly*

You know what they say: no good deed goes unpunished. And you were very diplomatic about it!

I figure it this way, thanks to your stalkers/fans, you’ll be remembered fondly as the great writer of the 21st century long after all the bad writers are gone. You’ll have a cult following and instead of Janeites, they’ll be keiranites. People will have reading circles just to discuss your work and what a wonderful writer you are. And then maybe an orgy or two after the meeting, in your honor.

[batspit.livejournal.com]

One of the many reasons my specialty as an editor is non fiction. Because people are much more able to deal with "you aren't enforcing the central thesis of this chapter" than they are "I hate all your original characters and your story line is pathetic."

If you don't want my real opinion you wouldn't have paid me to provide it.

Why is the current dominant trend in both 'literature' and media for the anti-hero? Are most of the people out in the real world complete assholes so that's what people can relate to? Its been ages since I read any 'literature' because its full of hateful characters. There's also too much of it in TV. I mean, how could anyone care about the predicament of the characters in SGU? I hoped they'd all STAY LOST FOREVER and not clutter up my planet with morons and asshats.

Heinlein, who is one of my favorite writers of all times has an excellent diatribe about 'artists' presented by a wonderful character* who basically says, if an artist can not express a message and perspective about the human condition in such a way that it can be understood by practically anyone, they're a failure as an artist. Whatever their medium.

So tell Local Writer that one of the founding fathers of an entire genre thinks she's a failure as an artist. Then she'll swallow her face and you won't have to read any more of her obnoxious characters.


*Jubal Harshaw, Stranger in a Strange Land.

[ainokesshou.livejournal.com]

I don't write anything, I only read. As a reader, though, I've always felt that antiheroes only really work when the villain has no redeeming or endearing characteristics; sympathetic villains only work when the hero is more so; and doormat heroines turn me off completely. Having all three in one book sounds like it would be completely unreadable.

[cathepsut.livejournal.com]

Insulting much? You have every right to be pissed off. I would have been furious.

[jbjewel.livejournal.com]

Normally I disapprove of book burning but this time don't forget the marshmallows. I happen to READ romance because most "literature" is either boring, obnoxiously look at me I'm and Intellectual or flat out depressing. Have fun.

[originaltempus.livejournal.com]

rrmmm

Instead of an effigy, how's about you hang onto that manuscript, and cite it as a perfect example of technical know-how ruined by weak artistry?

Apparently she has the mechanics of writing down. It's her imagination that's sorely lacking.

[originaltempus.livejournal.com]

heh heh
That made me think of a visual comparison.

A landscape artist vs a wildlife artist.

The landscape artist could paint the perfect visual world you could just step into, but their elephant would look more like a five legged dog. I'm damned glad that Robert Bates always kept his perspectives so close to his subject matter, to avoid the distraction of weak landscaping. LOL

[qzee.livejournal.com]

your reaction to her hero made me think of J.K. Rowlings' Severus Snape. I love him. He's snarky, one of the most well rounded characters of the series, he has faults, he isn't perfect and doesn't pretend to be, and his dedication to his potions added to his willingness to put himself in danger to spy on Dumbledore made me love him more than I love Harry. Yet, from what I understand, Rowling based the character on a teacher she hated and couldn't understand why so many of her readers liked him. Well, it's because well rounded complex characters = love.

I hope you find a better, more enjoyable story to enjoy soon.

[insanity--inc.livejournal.com]

Do you have any of her hair? You could make a voodoo doll. ^_^ I don't know if those really work but maybe it would have more tact and talent than that author.

[keiramarcos]

Ya know, I've always wanted to make a voodoo doll. ALWAYS. Ever since I watched that episode of Gilligan's Island.

[amanda d (from livejournal.com)]

I think you've gotten the gist that we all agree with snotty chick lit writer right? It boggles my mind when people say 'be honest' and then when you are it turns into a shit storm.

can I ask what Genre her story was supposed to be if it wasn't romance?

[keiramarcos]

She said it was SUSPENSE but like I said, the villain was more likeable than the hero and he killed 3 people.

[ravenmoonart.livejournal.com]

Ok...so, first of all, it has a "hero", a "heroine" and a "love scene"...doesn't that basically make her book a "romance"????

I just love people who want to pick your brain for helpful info, then insult you instead of thanking you. I get this crap a LOT. I get artists who want me to tell them all about my techniques, supply sources, and business secrets, then go on to make comments about how "commercial" (meaning "profitable") my work is, compared to how "serious" there own art is.

The immediately pissy attitude she had over your comments also makes it sound (to me)like she'd heard that particular criticism before. I'd be a little doubtful about her saying that the other readers loved her characterizations. Just saying.

[insanity--inc.livejournal.com]

Isn't it only "serious" if you're the starving artist? When you start to make money then you're a "sell out"? Hee! ^_^

If you can make money at something you love doing then kudos to you! The rest of us can only hope to have that one day.

Nearly speechless

[justalurkr.livejournal.com]

I'm trying very hard not to invalidate Local Writer's reaction (yes, I've been in therapy; why do you ask?) BUT OMG. She dissed a reader's reaction based on what the reader writes? For a living? As in reader published, Local Writer trying?

My objectivity is further hampered by my own perception that whatever the official genre, a novel with a hero, villain, heroine and sex scene has at least an element of romance. If the asshat and the doormat actually wound up together, it is a romance. Based on the little you described, it's a very Olde Skoole bodice ripper.

Unless the people you were trying not to contradict were literary agents or the publishing house personnel offering to purchase the manuscript, Local Writer exercised very poor judgment in feedback acceptance, especially if you represent her target demographic. If you don't, why did she waste everyone's time?